When Nobody Says Who Did It

In a previous lesson, we talked about the impersonal form in Italian, where we use si. 

Si mangia bene in Italia (one eats well in Italy).

In una chiesa, si parla piano (in a church, one speaks quietly).

We're talking about people in general, but we use the third person singular as an all-purpose impersonal particle or pronoun. In English, we can come close with using "one" or "people," or even a general "you" or "we."

When we move into a compound past tense, such as the passato prossimo, however, an auxiliary verb is required, just like in English. When we are using the impersonal si in a compound past tense, the auxiliary verb is always essere (to be), not avere (to have). That is the important thing to remember. 

So let's say you have come back from your trip to Italy. Hopefully, you can truthfully say the food was good. You are not just talking about yourself or the people you were with. It's more general. 

Si è mangiato bene (we ate well),

Quando eravamo in una chiesa, si è parlato piano (when we were in a church, we/people spoke quietly). 

 

When Italians talk about ideas, discussions, discoveries, and opinions without saying who expressed them, you may hear:

si è pensato che
si è detto che
si è parlato di
si è creduto che
si è scoperto che
si è iniziato a

But what's that all about? That little particle si. Is it reflexive? Impersonal?

Hint: It's impersonal, not reflexive, although there is definitely a resemblance to the reflexive si.

Notice the pattern. This pattern often appears in documentaries, news reports, and historical programs. You may or may not hear it in conversations. Si + the auxiliary verb essere (to be) in some conjugation + the past participle of a verb. And careful, some of these verbs, such as credere and pensare require the subjunctive after che. 

In everyday conversation, Italians often tell us who did something. 

We: Abbiamo parlato del problema (we talked about the problem).

They: Gli studiosi hanno pensato che... (scholars thought that...)

They: Avevano parlato di una separazione... (they had talked about...)

But in documentaries, news reports, and historical programs, Italians often leave the people out of the sentence:

Si è parlato del problema. (the problem was discussed)

A lungo si è pensato che... (For a long time the thought was...)

Si era parlato di una separazione... (A separation had been talked about...)

The funny thing is that when we translate phrases that have this construction, we tend to use the passive voice in English. It's natural because that is how we leave the actor out of the equation. But in Italian, as soon as we use the impersonal si, the focus shifts away from the person performing the action. Since we don't use the impersonal "one" all that often in English, we revert to the passive voice when translating this kind of construction, even when the Italian sentence is not technically a passive sentence. A quandary!

The good news is that you don't need to use this structure very often yourself (although you certainly can), but you may hear or read it, so it's good to be prepared for it. The important thing to know is that the auxiliary verb will be essere (to be), not avere (to have).

On Yabla, we can see this in real time. If you watch a TV series such as Commissario Manara, you will see and hear certain patterns (that may be region-dependent). But if we watch a documentary such as Meraviglie, we'll see quite different constructions. All we have to do is recognize them, not necessarily master them, or be able to use them in conversation. There's usually an easier workaround. 

Here are some examples:

Ma chi erano gli Etruschi? A lungo si è pensato che provenissero dal Mediterraneo orientale.

But who were the Etruscans? For a long time, it was thought/scholars thought that they came from the eastern Mediterranean.

Captions 20-21, Meraviglie EP. 6 - Part 2

 Play Caption

 

Otto pareti; è un ottagono e si è molto detto, si è parlato tanto di questa simmetria di Castel del Monte.

Eight walls: It's an octagon and much has been said... we've spoken at length/much has been said about this symmetry of Castel del Monte.

Captions 12-14, Meraviglie EP. 2 - Part 10

 Play Caption

 

Prima un fascio in una direzione, poi il fascio nell'altra direzione e si è iniziato a, diciamo così, ad accordare la, la macchina, ad accordare l'acceleratore e tutto è andato bene quel giorno.

First a beam in one direction, then the beam in the other direction and it started to, let's say, to tune the, the machine, to tune the accelerator and everything went well that day.

Captions 69-74, Ritratti Fabiola Gianotti - Part 12

 Play Caption

 

Il signor Spada e la moglie danese pare che non andassero per niente d'accordo, tanto che si era parlato di separazione.

Mister Spada and his Danish wife, it seems, weren't getting along at all, so much so that they had talked about a separation/a separation had been talked about.

Captions 20-21, Il Commissario Manara S1EP11 - Beato tra le donne - Part 5

 Play Caption

 

Con il dottor Martini, si era pensato di introdurre un servizio di assistenza domiciliare per gli anziani,

With Doctor Martini, we had thought of introducing a service of home care for the elderly,

Captions 45-46, Un medico in famiglia Stagione 3 S3 EP1: Ciao famiglia - Part 4

 Play Caption

 

What you need to know:

When we use the impersonal si, we use the third person singular. But just as we do with the reflexive si, we use essere as an auxiliary verb. NOT avere!

Notice that the subject of an impersonal sentence is not a standard subject.

Who spoke?

Who thought?

Who said it?

We don't know.

The subject has been deliberately removed or omitted.

The following constructions are wrong:

❌ si ha parlato

❌ si ha pensato

❌ si ha detto

Instead, Italian uses essere:

✅ si è parlato

✅ si è pensato

✅ si è detto

You don't need to memorize a complicated rule. Just notice the pattern:

In compound tenses, the impersonal si uses essere, not avere.

In other words, when Italians use the impersonal si in a compound tense, they are often talking about:

what people thought
what people said
what people believed
what people discussed
what people discovered
what people observed
what people started doing

without specifying who.

That's exactly why the construction exists.

Compare:

Conversation

Hanno parlato del progetto.
Abbiamo discusso della questione.
Gli studiosi hanno pensato che...

The speakers are identifiable.

Report-style language

Si è parlato del progetto.
Si è discusso molto della questione.
A lungo si è pensato che...

 

The focus shifts away from "who" onto "what." 

Up until this point, we have discussed the si impersonale in compound tenses in sentences where there is no direct object.

In the next lesson, we will see what happens in a compound tense and impersonal si when there is also a direct object. 

In Italian, the distinction between one kind of si and another depends on things such as:

• whether there is a direct object, in other words, if the verb is transitive or intransitive
• whether agreement is necessary,
• whether the construction can alternate between singular and plural.

What people call the si is sometimes murky, but the important thing is to know how it should sound. However, once you start recognizing the patterns, it can be fun to figure out exactly what kind of si we're talking about in a given sentence. 

Thanks for reading.